See also Vignette

CHARLES P. GASKINS
Pitt County Commissioner

January 21, 2000

Interviewer: Beth Nelson

Beth Nelson: You are a native of Pitt County and have lived here all of your life except when you were in the service. Please comment on this.

Charles Gaskins: Yes, that's right. I was overseas for almost four years. I was drafted in 1942 into the Army and was sent overseas almost immediately. When I came back, my father was Registrar of Deeds in Pitt County at that time and when he died they appointed me to fill his place. I was twenty-three years old.

There were fellows named Stuart Carr and John Clark. There was Hill Burton money grants that you could get and which I recall this one was for $50,000 which is a pittance now but is was a sizeable piece of change then. So, the Board of Commissioners appointed Mr. Clark (Stuart Carr was then the Chairman of the Committee) to hold a bond election for monies to build a hospital. What they had was more of a clinic on Johnston Street. At this time there was a couple of doctors, Dr. John Wooten was one.

Beth Nelson: What were some of the concerns at that time?

Charles Gaskins: Well, concerns were that Pitt County was growing and they needed a hospital and didn't have one. This one was a clinic.

Beth Nelson: Why were people opposed to it? Were they concerned about debt?

Charles Gaskins: That's correct. That's the only reason. For a long time the history of this County was that it was agricultural. It was a small town surrounded by country. They were opposed to anything that happened in the city. Many of the folks were fussing about it. I got very interested because, as I say, I was Clerk to the Pitt County Board of Commissioners and had to do everything that the County Attorney does now. There was an excellent older lady that really did the paperwork.

Beth Nelson: Tell me about becoming a county commissioner and then did you run for Registrar of Deeds?

Charles Gaskins: Yes, I ran for Registrar of Deeds and I won and served for a term and served that four-year term. I was appointed to the Pitt County Board of Commissioners and then I ran as I have many times since then.

Beth Nelson: Tell me about how long you were Registrar of Deeds?

Charles Gaskins: I was there in that position approximately seven years in all. I didn't finish that term. I went into private business. I went into the oil business. It was Quality Oil Company that distributed petroleum products.

Beth Nelson: What year were you appointed to the Board of County Commissioners for the first term.

Charles Gaskins: Then I ran for office which was in 1947 as I recall.

Beth Nelson: So, you have been a county commissioner without interruption since 1947?

Charles Gaskins: Yes, I think that is right, at least they tell me that anyway.

Beth Nelson: Over those years you came to be involved with the hospital. What was your first involvement?

Charles Gaskins: The first thing was the bond referendum to raise the money and the next was the actual building of the hospital.

Beth Nelson: How were you involved in the bond referendum? Did you work to see that the bond referendum was passed? Were you involved in trying to build up support for it?

Charles Gaskins: I was. There really was not too much opposition or fussing or fighting about it. It was really just a case of what I mentioned about country versus city. Bill Speight was the County Attorney at that time. He and I were the official spokesmen of the Pitt County Commissioners. They had appointed me as official spokesman but it wasn't anything but looking after business and it gave me authority so we were the ones who selected the site. We had to advertise in the paper that we wanted to buy around 100 acres for construction of the new hospital. Those who had property they were offering would go before the Board of County Commissioners.

Beth Nelson: This was for the Fifth Street hospital. Tell me, you were involved in the bond referendum that created the hospital on Fifth Street?

Charles Gaskins: Yes, this is the one I am talking about.

Beth Nelson: You were involved in the purchase of that property?

Charles Gaskins: It came about through a gift from the Moye family of seventeen acres and then was that when the Hill Burton grant money came around. We secured a grant of $50,000. Then we had a bond issue in the amount of $9 or $11 million.

Beth Nelson: Wasn't that for the new hospital?

Charles Gaskins: Yes, I think it was a whole lot less than that. You are exactly right. That's the kind of information that Ralph Hall has and he can give it to you.

Beth Nelson: Tell me about the selection of the site on Fifth Street. Who else was involved in that? I guess when you think about that site on Fifth Street that seems like it would have been way out in the country at that time. Describe what that land was like.

Charles Gaskins: It was farmland and the word around was that Greenville would never grow in a westerly direction and they were wrong as you know. The Moye family gave that land.

Beth Nelson: What family of Moyes' was that?

Charles Gaskins: Joe Moye and J. Howard Moye.

Beth Nelson: Who approached them about donating the land?

Charles Gaskins: They had a sister who was unmarried and she gave the land to Pitt County with the hope that it would make their land near Greenville. It was also for business reasons.

Beth Nelson: I guess at that time it would have not been terribly valuable property compared to some as it was pretty far from downtown.

Charles Gaskins: That's right. It wasn't valuable and one reason it was selected was because the county owned some land out there and this land abutted that and so it made it more favorable.

Beth Nelson: It seems like at one time the county owned quite a bit of land.

Charles Gaskins: They did. They owned 180 - 190 acres out at the County Home then here where the present office building is now. They got the 17acres from the Moyes and then they bought 20 or 30 acres that adjoined.

Beth Nelson: So what other properties were considered?

Charles Gaskins: One that was offered and considered was on Dickenson Avenue where the Moose Lodge is out past West End Circle.

Beth Nelson: That would have been fairly far out in the country too.

Charles Gaskins: Yes it was. It was outside of the city.

Beth Nelson: Was that controversial at all to move it outside of the center part of the city?

Charles Gaskins: No, it wasn't controversial because it was centrally located in Pitt County. All of this was a county proposition; not the city's at all. This was a county deal. One reason they wanted it that way as I mentioned before was all these little towns like Ayden, Farmville and Bethel were opposed to anything but an agricultural county.

Beth Nelson: Did you go to any of the public hearings or meetings? What was the reaction, were people respectful in their opposition?

Charles Gaskins: The only argument was incurring debt in the bonds and that was their opposition and the other was the location of the hospital. It was agreed if we found a centrally located place which it was but they didn't want it in Greenville. A lot of that feeling persists in this town.

Beth Nelson: To me, it's amazing that they ever managed to merge the school system.

Charles Gaskins: I can tell you about that because I am the person who introduced calling for the merger. I got Bill Speight to write a Resolution calling for the merger. The reason that it passed was because we had a new superintendent of the county schools coming in. The old person, Ott Alford, had died.

Beth Nelson: Who was the new one who came in?

Charles Gaskins: Eddie West. At one time Ott had been superintendent of the county schools. Eddie had come in as administrator of the county schools. At budget time there would always be a heck of a fight between the city and the county schools about the money and the county was not getting their fair share. If you put in Greenville School District, they got all the tax money so that was the reason. Everything is always money.

I was on the Board of County Commissioners and I got Bill Speight to write the resolution. Incidentally, Bill Speight was the only attorney I ever saw who would give you reasons why you could do something rather than why you can't do something. He said he would draw up the Resolution and ask the School Board to go along. Eddie West came in and it was all right with him. It did pass and I recall that Bob Martin, the present Senator, was on the School Board and got it introduced. He said it was something that needed to be done but would never be done. We had a lot of meetings and did equalize the funds that came from the taxes to the schools. All the school districts, I believe 13 of them, owed money.

Beth Nelson: When were you appointed to the Board of Trustees of the hospital? I know at one time you were the County Commissioner liaison.

Charles Gaskins: It started when the new hospital was organized. Bill Speight put the Charter out there, which is still in place. I think it is a wonderful instrument. Several years ago the Articles covered everybody. He also wrote the Articles for the hospital.

Beth Nelson: Was this the Charter or the Affiliation Agreement?

Charles Gaskins: These were two different things. I am talking about the Charter for the hospital. The Affiliation Agreement came later on.

Beth Nelson: I like what you said about Bill Speight being a lawyer who explained how things could be done rather than why they couldn't be done.

Charles Gaskins: Yes, he was such a great man.

Beth Nelson: What did he die of?

Charles Gaskins: He died from a heart attack. We were having a county commissioners meeting and he was there, of course, as county attorney and he went down to Reginald Gray's office, he was the county manage to get a law book and he never came back. He died in that office while we were meeting. He was an honorable man. He had married an English girl who was a war bride.

Beth Nelson: One of the things I am looking for are some of the little mini stories of just interesting, funny or poignant things that you were a part of or heard about. A lot of what I have heard, sometimes you wonder if it was true or folklore. Tell me some things, particularly obstacles that might have been there.

Charles Gaskins: There are things there but I can't think of them. Ask Ralph Hall as he has a scrapbook. One thing about Ralph is that he came here to build a hospital and there is no telling how much money he supervised spending.

Beth Nelson: Perhaps just a funny angle on things. Ralph came here to build a $9 million hospital and we have been building ever since.

Charles Gaskins: That's right. The county, the architect and the hospital hired Ralph.

Beth Nelson: How old are you? I didn't ask you that.

Charles Gaskins: I will be 81 next month on George Washington's birthday, February 22.

Beth Nelson: What about some of the things that happened with the Board, I know you were always very active on the Building Committee.

Charles Gaskins: I was Chairman of the Building Committee for 21 years.

Beth Nelson: Tell me some of the things that were particularly challenging, interesting or funny.

Charles Gaskins: When they were building the hospital they put on some outside coating of a new type. This was like a stucco mix but different. They decided to try this and they did and it did not work and they had to remove it. It so happened they didn't lose any money on this because the contractor was at fault. It wasn't funny but it was a blow.

Beth Nelson: How much of that exterior material was put on the building? Was it just a sample type of area?

Charles Gaskins: It was not a big thing. Ralph caught it.

Beth Nelson: How was it determined? Did it not stay in place or did it leak? Do you remember what the problem was?

Charles Gaskins: Yes, it leaked.

Beth Nelson: What about the Affiliation Agreement? Tell me about your role in that and other key people who were instrumental.

Charles Gaskins: When the hospital was being built the state, through the University of North Carolina, granted the hospital and Pitt County some money. Pitt County took that money and built those offices up there at the front of the hospital which is called, I believe, the teaching addition. So, UNC was in business with them and felt they should have some say so.

Beth Nelson: Were you involved in negotiating that?

Charles Gaskins: Yes, on behalf of the County.

Beth Nelson: Who did you work with on that at the state level? Was that a Bill Friday issue?

Charles Gaskins: Of course Ed Monroe was there then. We worked, as I recall, with two men in Bill Friday's office. They recently retired. I'll tell you something that happened that was interesting to me. The four or five members who were involved went up to Chapel Hill one night to meet with Bill Friday in his office. There was some opposition to the School of Medicine and some of the strongest opposition came from our local doctors who were practicing here. We went up there that night to meet with him and we went in and a fellow was sitting there. This fellow told us who he was. I really cannot remember his name but I think he was from one of the rich families in Durham related to the Hills. He made a talk which was one of the ugliest talks I have ever heard one man make to another. He was in opposition to a medical school in Greenville. Anyway, he was sitting there and he made this real ugly series of remarks and Bill Friday told him to wait just a minute. Bill Friday looked at me and said he wanted us to know that these remarks were this man's personal opinions and that he did not speak for him or the Board of Trustees of the University of North Carolina. That fellow was absolutely out of order. He shouldn't have been there. He was so ugly you wouldn't believe it but I think he had a name you would recognize immediately.

Beth Nelson: You said he was opposed to the school of medicine?

Charles Gaskins: Oh yes, he was opposed to the school of medicine and everything back there. Also, the Charlotte newspaper wrote this ugly editorial. It was terrible.

Beth Nelson: Yes, I am trying to get copies of all of that because quite a bit of that needs to be in our archives. It needs to be something that we have. These are the kinds of things that make you great when you can look back and see all those tough times and realize that you overcame them.

Charles Gaskins: I'm not telling you what you need to do but you should go and see Ralph Hall and look at his scrapbook.

Beth Nelson: I think you are right. I didn't realize he had that. I would consider it a personal favor if you either today or two weeks from now, if you think of somebody who you think I need to talk to. If you think of a name you think I might not have thought of either dead or alive. If the person has died I can talk with friends or relatives.

Charles Gaskins: I know you know Jack Richardson. He is the one who will remember so many of the incidents. I know he does. That was a great period in my life when I was riding around with Jack. We went up to Raleigh to see those folks about that. Jack could really handle himself. He was highly respected in the medical world.

Beth Nelson: What do you think were some of Jack Richardson's strengths?

Charles Gaskins: His strengths were his knowledge, as he knew the medical business. He was just an honest public-spirited man. He wasn't for himself at all.

Beth Nelson: One think that I remember hearing about him was he didn't want the accoutrements that a lot of people in his position were after. He didn't want a big salary because he knew it might undermine the relationship he had with Reginald Gray. He always avoided increases and never wanted to have a salary that was higher than Reginald Gray's. One thing I always remember was that people joked about him ordering a new car one year after he had ridden the one he had down to the nub. The new car came in one day, which had been ordered off the state contract. It was at rock bottom price and came with only a radio. It was an AM/FM radio and he made them take it out and said that an AM/FM radio was too fine for him and that he would let some of the younger boys have that.

Charles Gaskins: That's right. He also drove a used sheriff's deputy vehicle for years and years and that was by choice. That's why he was so great. He was unselfish-that's the word I want to use. He had the respect of everybody.

Beth Nelson: When he laughed it would fill up the whole room.

Charles Gaskins: Yes, he was and is a great man and I was crazy about Jack and I still am.

Beth Nelson: A big part of the story about the hospital is about Jack Richardson. He lived through and led so much of it.

Charles Gaskins: He is really the one who got everything started. He got Bryant Aldridge who was the administrator at Nash General Hospital to come over and make a presentation in Pitt County. He was from Kinston and a former football player at Duke. Bryant was popular and was really a hero. He had nothing to gain personally and he made a presentation in favor of the new hospital.

Beth Nelson: Let's now move to talk about the bond referendums for the new hospital on Stantonsburg Road. I remember Jack Richardson talking about the public hearings having such violent opposition. He said they would go to public hearings and the people would shout him down and people would tell him that we would be building a "white elephant" that would sit empty and that it would be nothing but a burden to the county. You probably attended as many of those public hearings as anybody. Tell me about the mood of the people and the perspective that they had.

Charles Gaskins:Jack was right. The mood was not good and they didn't want to spend that money for the hospital. The money to purchase the land on which the hospital presently sits, the Federal Government had a program back then called Revenue Sharing, so the County didn't expend any of their revenue sharing for three years which came to about $200,000. They took that money and bought the land and, of course, the hospital was built. That did away with spending any of the taxpayer money. That was a big help and that's where the money came from. I think it came somewhere in the neighborhood of $190,000 which was a pretty good piece of that money but the County had been very smart in saving that money and not spending it. The State Treasurer, a Mr. Gill, had said we ought to save it for something.

Beth Nelson: How did the county commissioners feel about that? Were they in agreement with all of this or was there some opposition to it?

Charles Gaskins: There was some opposition to it but never enough to control the vote.

Beth Nelson: Who were some of the negative commissioners?

Charles Gaskins: Bob Martin. I think he was the principal one but I really cannot remember.

Beth Nelson: Did they vote openly against it?

Charles Gaskins: He quietly worked against it. I remember once when we were meeting to purchase that land he raised pure hell. He still is like that. He was outvoted and he realized it. He didn't have enough support. Bruce Strickland, a farmer. Bell Arthur, was always in favor. He was a wonderful man.

Beth Nelson: I guess the County was talking about taking on debt at a time when financially times were tight. These were times when making the payroll was kind of difficult. Were there ever times when you thought to yourself that you had bit off more than you could chew? Maybe we need to back off and think about this in five or ten years from now? Did you ever waiver in your support?

Charles Gaskins: Not from the first moment because of what I said before. You could not do those things unless you had the money to do it with. That's where you get yourself in trouble by spending what you don't have. That was a strict ruling that was adhered to, absolutely. Talking about that, I remember one thing when they were moving into the present building. Jack Richardson had talked to all the doctors and told them he wanted them to let the patients stay a few days longer than they needed to be there because we needed occupancy for the first few weeks. We know we needed to have a certain income.

Beth Nelson: I guess that was in the days when you could do that kind of thing. You could keep people for days and not be penalized.

Charles Gaskins: That is correct. What he was asking could not hurt the hospital.

Beth Nelson: I remember hearing about the move to the new hospital that there was not enough money to pay for furniture and equipment and that essentially they had to paint and fix up what they had and move it to the new hospital. Do you remember that?

Charles Gaskins: Yes, I do remember. They did do that but luckily The Duke Endowment came across with $750,000 and that relieved that situation. In that year, that was a chunk of money. The person really responsible for that if you had to pick one was Ralph Hall. He attended all of The Duke Endowment meetings. He was very popular in the medical field and all. The Secretary of The Duke Endowment liked what Ralph was doing. Also, you are right they did have to paint and fix up furniture and equipment.

Beth Nelson: What do you see as being some of the biggest obstacles the hospital overcame over the years? What were some of the challenges?

Charles Gaskins: I really don't know. I look back and it was run so well with Jack Richardson. Everyone thought it was a good thing and we needed it but everything went very well. You should see all the material Jack Richardson has. He will show you some things in envelopes. He was really keeping up with what was going on. Everything was really handled well and I think that everybody was confident that it was going to be a success.

Beth Nelson: Going back to times when you can remember up to today, what would you say are some primary reasons for its success?

Charles Gaskins: The first would be the school of medicine because the medical school drew doctors. Incidentally, when the hospital first started there was only a staff of about 50 doctors. I think that was one of the things. Another thing would be the hospital employees. They were unselfish in that the hospital came first before anything. There were also good doctors who were already here. One of those was Frank Longino who was respected by the entire staff and he was a wonderful person for Jack Richardson to have on his side. He was a surgeon and his ability was great. I think he had a lot to do with it. There was a great spirit of cooperation.

Beth Nelson: What about the challenges the hospital faces now and in the future. What can you say about those?

Charles Gaskins: I really don't know.

Beth Nelson: Let me go through my list of people that I'm going to interview. The list grows daily. Please look at it if you will and maybe add more names.

Charles Gaskins: I remember once we were meeting over at the college and a group from Chapel Hill were coming down here and what they wanted to do was not to build a hospital but to sort of establish a little system of clinics around. So, they came down here to sell those bill of goods. They were from the UNC System. Four or five of them came here and were meeting over at the hospital. Our local folks were waiting for them to show up and they kind of came swaggering in and they had a bottle of whiskey with them. The brand name was "Virginia Gentleman" and everybody knew what they were trying to do. They thought they were going to come here to visit a bunch of country yokels and sell them their plan. They were going to give them a drop of whiskey to start with. It was just so obvious that it was something but Ed Monroe laid into them well. But we laughed about that for a long time.

Beth Nelson: Who were some of the people, do you recall?

Charles Gaskins: There was Jack Richardson, Ed Monroe, Ralph Hall, Frank Longino and myself. It was so funny what they were going to try to do. Of course, they got nowhere. It was a sorry plan that just wouldn't work.

Beth Nelson: You are talking about the whole idea of a system of clinics rather than a school of medicine?

Charles Gaskins: That's correct. They had this system in the State of Washington. They had one doctor with them from the State of Washington. They got nowhere and nobody got a drop of whiskey either. One of them came from the UNC School and had a French name. He was a big fellow. Wa all laughed about that for a long time.

Beth Nelson: Here are some more names of people I plan to interview or for those who have died I will try to locate family or people who knew them: If you can think of other people who you remember, please let me know.

Charles Gaskins: The hospital is about one of the best things that has happened in this County.